Talk:Beyoncé

Businesswoman

I noticed that her lead sentence has hidden text insisting on calling her a businesswoman. However, I checked the talk page archives and I do not see consensus to call her a businesswoman- what is exactly making her a businesswoman that differentiates it from other celebrities? Besides her own haircare line and Ivy Park, has she notably been a "businesswoman?" She's more of an actress than a businesswoman. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 02:20, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Lead change

Her lede is going under rapid changes, with it going from 4 paragraphs at the start of this month to 5, which goes against MOS:LEAD standards. Please be advised to not stuff her lead article with too much WP:FLUFF. Thank you. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 02:24, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

After doing some copyediting, I've gotten it back down to 4 paragraphs, but it still exceeds the maximum of 400 words for the lead section (it is currently at 488). I do agree that information about her cultural impact should be mentioned, but be concise, as there are only so many ways to say "Beyonce is very good." PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 03:13, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

There are also too many EFNs in her lede paragraph. This should be changed to bulleted points with all the sources and their appropriate quotes. I'll try to convert the EFNs later when I have the time. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 03:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bgkc4444: I appreciate your constructive tightening of the lead section instead of edit-warring. However, I am opening a discussion here on the talk page to discuss specific things being highlighted in her lead section (e.g, how is she exactly a businesswoman, why did you remove her actress title, and why should her business ventures be mentioned, etc.) PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 12:11, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Source evaluation

Since 50~ sources have been added to the lead, I'll be evaluating these sources to see if they're high quality and meet the standards of Wikipedia. Furthermore, I'll be converting them to a more readable format and also potentially moving it to the body of the article instead of the lead where extensive sources may be better. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 12:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

First efn tackles her "influence as a cultural figure", so I picked high-quality sources that specifically mention her influence. This includes the AP and Grammy references. The USA today sources, which also specifically mention her influence, is pretty good as well. I am also keeping the Business Insider source as it's pretty high quality. The rest of the sources are pretty low quality, and aren't specific to the prose (Beyonce is an influential artist) PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 12:48, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Second efn is fairly weaker. The only strong source is the Time Magazine, the OkayPlayer source is very weak (it isn't even OkayPlayer the publication, it's being attributed to someone else), and the Vox source is better in the "good source list" that I'm making right now calling her one of the most important cultural figures. The last source is unrelated and talks about her talk-rapping, which might be better in Cultural impact of Beyoncé. Besides the first source, the specific quote of "changing the music industry" does not have enough sources to be attributed to Beyonce specifically. If this will be challenged by sources saying such, please remember to use high quality sources that are very specific and not vague about her impact on the music industry. I would also appreciate being able to see these sources to check if they fall under the RS guidelines. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 12:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Third efn has enough sources (four) to support publications naming her "monocultural" moments, so I think that's worth keeping, but avant-garde is very vague and is a term usually used for fine arts, not very much for music. Both self-titled and Lemonade are concept albums, so I think that's a more fitting term than "avant garde." I am also converting these sources and throwing out the more vague sources. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 13:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Fourth efn tackles that she's been named artist of the decade. This does not need an EFN, the Business Insider and Guardian sources are enough to prove that she's been named the artist of both the 2000s and 2010s decade by different publications.

Fifth efn tackles the situation that her albums have ranked amongst the best of all time, but many artists albums are on these "best albums of all time" lists, but it isn't mentioned in their leads because those lists are always ever changing and not permanent. I think this should be taken out and potentially recontextalized to be in line more with Wikipedia's NPOV and MOS. I will be opening a seperate discussion for this. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 13:22, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bgkc4444:, I am temporarily going to remove the efn as stuffing sources in efns is an improper usage of an explanatory footnote, I suggest using the proper ref dot-style format that I implemented which has better

Before re-adding it, I suggest vetting and fixing the references properly in a userspace and then re-adding it if needed. But in my opinion I don't think it's needed, Beyonce has already been noted for having some of the greatest albums of all time; I think one source, preferably from a Rolling Stone list etc, would be more appropriate for her lead regarding greatest albums. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 04:52, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

"Greatest album of all time"

Many artists with entries in these listicles naming the greatest albums of all time usually do not have it mentioned in the lead. I personally feel that the text regarding critics naming her albums as some of the best would fit more on Beyoncé albums discography, as that page is specifically catered to albums.

Generally, the intro paragraph already implies that Beyonce is very acclaimed for her work, and her albums acclaim is already mentioned in the 3rd paragraph. I feel that "critics calling her work the best of all time" is a redundant sentence that may be better off being moved to an Impact or Achievements section. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 13:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi sorry I missed this! The sources for that sentence state that her music videos and songs are also listed amongst the greatest of all time, so it is not just relevant to albums, as I previously stated in my edit summary. And the fact that "many" articles don't have a similar sentence is not relevant to the notability here (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS).

Additionally, your claim that "Rolling Stone named her as the greatest entertainer of the past decade" is slightly misleading. The source says: "For at least the past decade, Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter has been the world’s greatest living entertainer." That means currently, as with every year over the past decade, she is the greatest living entertainer. I had added the year of the article (2024) to clarify this.

Also, if Billboard achievements of Beyonce as part of group projects cannot be mentioned for her because Billboard doesn't combine solo and group achievement, then I don't believe we need to qualify other Billboard achievements as "solo".

For your edits not mentioned in the edit summary: the cited sources use "monocultural events" not just for Beyonce and Lemonade, so that edit is misleading. I would also remove "womanism" as it is a form of feminism and we don't need to be so specific/duplicative in the lead :) Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@PHShanghai: forgot to @ you :) Bgkc4444 (talk) 09:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@PHShanghai: I also just had a quick look at the contemporary artists who have multiple works that are also widely acclaimed (Kendrick Lamar and Kanye West) and both articles have these facts in the lead. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I just read the leads of both of those articles and they are far more specific and less vague than Beyonce's when it comes to that album facts.

• Three of his works were included in Rolling Stone's greatest albums of all time
• West's first six solo albums were included on Rolling Stone's greatest albums of all time

While Bey's sentence is more vague "her works have been ranked amongst some of the best albums". I think the prose should be more specific if you want to use "greatest albums of all time" specifically.

I would also suggest, now that the Billboard source is out, to replace the "greatest entertainer of the past decade" with the "greatest pop star of the 21st century", but keep the "greatest vocalist" prose. "Greatest pop star of the 21st century" is less vague and more blunt than "greatest living entertainer for at least the past decade."

Lastly, I do think that womanism is a very core part of Lemonade's themes; yes it is a form of feminism but Lemonade as a work tackles black womanhood and black female struggle in the context of slavery and racism in the US. It is not just general feminism, it is the topic of black female feminism. Bey cites Malcolm X in the Lemonade visuals; "no one is more disrespected in America than a black woman." @Bgkc4444: PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 04:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

@PHShanghai: Thanks - do you think it’s better to quote one source? I feel like if many publications say the same thing, that is what should be noted in the lead, rather than picking out one publication.

Regarding womanism, I agree it’s a core theme of the album, but I don’t think we need to be so specific in the lead of the Beyoncé article, especially when we’ve mentioned feminism and racial inequality, and especially if we’re grouping Beyoncé and Lemonade in this sentence. Bgkc4444 (talk) 22:47, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Lead look like a fanpage

The lead should stick to facts that known worldwide not regarded by magazines even if the sources are legit. This should be an ad page with too much peacooking. 2402:800:6105:5D0D:646C:39B4:C98C:FF12 (talk) 22:34, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 December 2024

In the "Public Image" section, 5th paragraph, line 2, request a name change from Emmett Price to Emmett G. Price III.

citation 369 Price III, Emmett G. Emmett G. Price III (talk) 17:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Cited source uses the name currently shown in the article. LizardJr8 (talk) 20:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

"widely acclaimed innovative projects"

Besides sounding like obvious WP:PEACOCK, it is also worthy to note that not all of her albums have been critically acclaimed; I Am Sasha Fierce received mixed reviews, whereas her 2000s albums seem to have more "general positive" reception. In her career, it is well known that self-titled & Lemonade were the turning point for her, acclaim-wise. It's more accurate to name those albums, and the two albums in her trilogy project, as her true "acclaimed" albums and magnum opuses. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 05:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The sentence "Her albums are noted for creating monocultural events, with all of her albums debuting at number one on the U.S. Billboard 200, as the only female artist to do so." needs re-wording because Selena Gomez has debuted at number 1 with all 3 of her solo albums. It's more correct to state that Beyoncé is the only female artist to have all eight of her solo studio albums debut at number one on the US Billboard 200. Koppite1 (talk) 10:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Noted, I've removed that part but kept the number of albums in the sentence. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 11:27, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Most RIAA certified female in history

Perhaps we can include this in the lede, maybe in the last paragraph?

https://x.com/ColumbiaRecords/status/1869084747663823167

Beyonce Has the Most RIAA Certified Titles of Any Female Artist

Thanks

Koppite1 (talk) 10:13, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Beyoncé has certainly become the female artist with the most RIAA-certified titles. However, Billboard incorrectly reported that she had 103 titles certified by the RIAA. According to the RIAA's official data, Beyoncé actually has 92 titles certified at a minimum of Gold. This discrepancy likely originated from a post by her record label, Columbia TheWikiholic (talk) 15:37, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2024

Please fix when she started her career in 1997. 148.76.130.29 (talk) 18:10, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 18:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

"Beyoncé (given name)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Beyoncé (given name) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 19 § Beyoncé (given name) until a consensus is reached. User:Someone-123-321 (I contribute, Talk page so SineBot will shut up) 07:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Lead should be changed

As good as Beyoncé is, the lead should be changed to sound less glowing and more in line with other contemporary figures. Taylor Swift’s lead is ideal for a benchmark 51.9.221.65 (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

copy/edit leads

• I toned down the lead sentence to be less puffy and more objective: she is an influential cultural figure who's influenced pop music through her work, etc.
• What is exactly the source for Cowboy Carter being an epic? As I understand it, pretty much all of her albums post-2013 have been conceptual music with overarching narratives. For example, Lemonade was a concept album with all tracks connecting together. The specific usage of the word "epic" is confusing to me as that can describe many of her old albums..

PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 08:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)